kengr

Based on some responses to a previous post, I have some further thoughts.

My reference to "how to behave" things, was more thinking of the way adults will get all over a kid for doing something that the kid was never told not to do and that you could not *reasonably* expect the kid to have gotten from "generalizing" other rules.

That, btw is a big problem in kid/adult relations. The adults don't seem to "get" that kids are *very* logical/literal.

So if you tell the kid "don't to X" you really shouldn't expect the kid to generalize that to "don't do X, Y or Z".

Likewise, if you define X to loosely, you shouldn't be surprised if the kid takes you literally.

The general response when someone (especially the kid) tries to point this out to adults is "you should have used your common sense".

BZZTT!!! Wrong. Expecting common sense from kids is not merely wrong, it's *insane*.

Common sense is nothing more than expectations based on *experience*. As such, expecting kids to have it is denying reality. And as such counts as insane.

Y see the same thing when some adults deal with adults from a different culture or a different area, btw. They expect them to follow unwritten rules that have never been explained to then.

Hmmm. It occurs to me that folks oughta be required to write down a lot of this unwritten stuff. Yeah, it'd be a pain. But it'd also both expose a lot of bigotry and stupid assumptions and make life easier for a lot of folks.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

stickmaker.livejournal.com

Sounds like we need a book titled _Life: An Owner's Manual_. ;-)

From:

maxstories.livejournal.com

There is definitely some merit to driving people to examine their expectations, communication, and assumptions. Unfortunately most people are simply not capable of critical assessment and particularly adults have numerous blind spots where programming and habit have removed any concept that there were alternate choices available.

My favorite example is alcohol. Alcohol is, by and large, bad for humans. It reduces your reaction time, dulls your senses, impairs your judgment, and is no substitute for learning how to relax and enjoy yourself without alcohol.

People go out and binge drink until they are completely crashed, and then convince themselves it was a great time until one drink took them over the edge or some mixture of different types of alcohol wrecked havok on them. The truth is they poisoned their body with alcohol until it finally couldn't do anything but try to forcefully eject said poison to protect itself.

There's nothing fun or cool or remotely even debonair about poisoning yourself. And the social process by which poisoning yourself becomes acceptable and even promoted to belong is full of a trail of idiots.

But if you ask a regular drinker why they drink or why they intentionally spend a chunk of their income on man made poison in various concentrations and formulations, the answers you get will all emphasize how poisoning yourself quickly or slowly is healthy and appropriate and adult and normal.

These are the same arguments smokers made, and if it weren't for the federal and state health budgets straining under the burden of treating them for various cancers and lung diseases they would still be telling everyone how great lighting up or chewing is.

Many of those smokers still cannot face the fact that there is an inherent slow painful death wish with their habit. A burden to their family and the society they live in. A nasty habit that should be something considered just as stupid as buying heavily taxed alcohol and partying until someone gets sick or naked.

Now that's adults. You seem focused on kids. So let's target the little aliens a bit. One kids have plenty of common sense. They learn very quickly what is hot and burns. They learn reasonably quickly what is going to get them yelled at or not. They are masters at testing the grey fringes and surviving.

The problem as I see it is that kids are in exploration mode. And most adults are not. Adults usually have settled into specific mannerisms, habits, and modes of thought. Kids are jumping from one thing to another. It's not about unwritten rules - because kids have as many if not more unwritten rules than adults who have settled into regular roles and patterns. Kids do not take everything literally or everything metaphorically - they take in what they find interesting, appealing, or noteworthy and then do what they want anyway. Kids do not tune out instructions out of any particular deficiency, they tune out instructions unless there is some semblance of a reward to go with them that outweighs trying their luck.

And kids make loads of mistakes. That's how they learn. You should expect it. You should know a process with only 5 steps and no doubt or lack of clarity may not be even partially followed. Writing down the unwritten rules wouldn't help a kid - because they wouldn't read them. And as most adults change the rules as context or consequences shift, it wouldn't be feasible anyway.

Unless you get into a specific example, I'm afraid your approach comes across as needing some critical examination. Your assumptions seem to largely be rationalizations for kid behaviour that doesn't align with the nature of kids. It's not a terrible place to start, but missing the underlying nature of kids and their exploration of the environment and boundaries can lead you to some awkward surprises at best.

From:

fayanora.livejournal.com

Hmmm...

From:

kengr

Regarding alcohol: I've *never* seen the point of getting drunk. But there's a world of difference between a beer or two (or a glass of wine) and that.

Oddly, alcohol was one of the few things my mom was pretty reasonable about.

Not having it be a big deal (and being allowed to indulge occasionally at home) meant that when my "peers" started trying to sneak it, my attitude was "Yeah, you've got alcohol. So?"

And in one memorable case I took a sip of the offered beer and spat it out making *very* disparaging remarks about the quality (it was Lucky Lager for those unfortunate enough to have ruin into it). Which may have earned me cool points, though I didn't realize it at the time.

Actually, even as a kid I was upset that adults never *explained* anything. And I do recall making many a mistake based on using logic, but with assumptions I wasn't aware of.

At least as an adult when you ask for an explanation you *mostly* don't get given the "quit trying to be difficult, you *know* what I mean" response.

I'mm not talking about "exploring" or "pushing limits". I'm talking about being punished for things that you had no idea were anything that was objectionable. Or because you failed at something due to insufficient information.

Example of that last would be a kid getting punished for pulling up flowers or vegetables when told to weed the garden. The problem being that the adult couldn't be bothered (or didn't see the necessity of) pointing out which was which.

That's an extreme example. But it happens.

One kids have plenty of common sense. They learn very quickly what is hot and burns. They learn reasonably quickly what is going to get them yelled at or not.

Rather than contradicting my point, you've just reinforced it. The common sense you cite is based on experience.

If confronted with a new situation, even one that seems new to the kid, even if it doesn't to the adults, expecting the kid to know the right things to do or not do is not reasonable.

From:

maxstories.livejournal.com

But there's a world of difference between a beer or two (or a glass of wine) and that.

I agree. There is also a world of difference between 0.5 gram of cyanide and 5 grams of cyanide. But you won't see many people enthusiastically pursuing testing the difference.

At least as an adult when you ask for an explanation you *mostly* don't get given the "quit trying to be difficult, you *know* what I mean" response.

I get these responses all the times from colleagues and coworkers. I get all kinds of excuses. I get people who think shouting louder will cover up the fact that they screwed up. I get confrontational sorts who want to put you on your back foot before the big meeting. I get naysayers who simply criticize and never add any value because they (I presume) have nothing to add but want air time.

I'm pretty sure these aren't responses only directed at children and adults.

From:

christinaathena.livejournal.com

I agree. There is also a world of difference between 0.5 gram of cyanide and 5 grams of cyanide. But you won't see many people enthusiastically pursuing testing the difference.

Sure, but cyanide has no positive. Alcohol does have positive emotional effects, in moderate quantities, as long as one doesn't overindulge. People don't only drink for reasons of social pressure, after all. How do you think alcohol first became used? Even other animals have been found to seek out spoiled, fermented, fruit in the wild. The big problem came when we developed the ability to concentrate alcohol, to make beverages stronger than 3% or so alcohol. (Of course, even before distillation there were problems of drunkenness and alcoholism, but they weren't as serious - it's probably no coincidence that few religions banned alcohol prior to the invention of distillation)

And surely the positive emotional effects should count for something? Otherwise one would argue against any non-procreative use of sex, for example, or physical contact between humans, as that can spread disease. Cars are dangerous, they kill thousands of people every year, but their usefulness is considered sufficient to balance out the deaths and injuries.

From:

christinaathena.livejournal.com

Example of that last would be a kid getting punished for pulling up flowers or vegetables when told to weed the garden. The problem being that the adult couldn't be bothered (or didn't see the necessity of) pointing out which was which.

That's a good example. When my cousin Heidi (she's now 5, at the time she was ... 3 or 4? Can't remember how long ago it was), when she was learning about weeding, we told her which plants to pull up, and if she didn't know, to ask. Sure, she sometimes pulled up the wrong plant, but then we just explained to her, calmly, that that wasn't the kind that was supposed to be pulled up. Not accusatorily, not "you should know better", just "next time, don't pull up one that looks like that". She learned pretty quickly, and was pretty good about asking "should I pull this one?" Actually, it made it take a lot longer to weed than it would've just being the adults, but we took it as a teaching experience for her. :-)

I make an effort to use that philosophy with children. To attempt to make myself clear, and to not get angry at honest mistakes, but to calmly explain the mistake.

From:

kengr

I make an effort to use that philosophy with children. To attempt to make myself clear, and to not get angry at honest mistakes, but to calmly explain the mistake.

Alas, to far too many adults, thee are no honest mistakes by children. At least not if considering them such would mean the adult would have to accept responsibility for the mess.

From:

christinaathena.livejournal.com

Yeah. I know some adults who actually feel that an adult SHOULD NEVER apologize to children! Which I think is absurd. If you make a mistake, you apologize, whether it's to a child or an adult.

From:

kengr

It's all part of the same dysfunction. Inability to realize that others are *not* just like you seems to often go with having to be right at all costs and needing to be overly controlling of *something*. With kids as a handy target...