Weird science?

[kengr]

I've often played with the idea that there isn't just *one* way to do things. So, for example, there may be several different ways to achieve FTL. Ditto for weapons tech and maybe defenses like shielding.

But the other day, I gave it more serious thought than I had in the past. I tried to picture a setup where the "other side's" tech isn't magic (except in the Clarkean sense) but is essentially incomprehensible to "us".

basic idea is similar to that in one set of Turtledove's stories where early on there's a crucial experiment or discovery that leads you in a direction that leads away from the sort of things we discovered.

But unlike his setup (where most races discovered antigrav and hyperdrive early, but never really got a handle "regular" physics), I want a more "even" result.

So both sides can do equivalent things, but their science behind said things is just so much gobbledegook to the other side.

But trying to *write* something like this looks like a *major* headache.

Comments

[siliconshaman]

Imagine if you will, that Tesla's theories had been widely accepted, leading to things like tensor fields and non-scalar mathematics. The fields of electrical engineering would have been vastly different, although no less scientifically valid.

Or what if we'd never rejected the theory of Aether...

[kengr]

Yeah, that and more. But it's *describing* things that's the problem. Especially the mutual incomprehension of each side.

If you know the story of the British boffins trying to make magnetron tubes work, you've seen a pale imitation of what it'd be like.

Folks on both sides *trying* to build things from instructions and tech manuals. And everything going wrong.

[siliconshaman]

Hoo yeah.. I know that one. Try building a 6 register 8 octave full-on Wurlizer electronic organ, where the instructions have been translated from Japanese into technical German by someone who's never had to use one before, much less actually assemble it.

That was me and my music teacher... we at least had the advantage of knowing what it ought to look like, even if neither of us had a clue how it worked.

[kengr]

George O Smith had fun with that sort of thing in his Venus Equilateral universe. One fun one was some guys trying to figure an ancient Martian gizmo. They'd actually *found* the tech manual with it. But it left out a lot of "everybody knows" things.

And then there was the new manager on Venus Equilateral. One who had *no* tech background. Which led to the unfortunate incident with the air plant...

I just came up with an evil bit for the universe I'm fiddling with. The humans are trying to copy some "transponders" that the other group uses much like we do our transponders.

So they are carefully testing things, step by step. The managed to interface them with their ship. Took a while to get the power right. Even worse, getting the interface right. Luckily after some discussion with the other guys, they got an optical interface going. Both sides *did* use fiber optics. and modulations and wavelengths were doable by both sides.

Now, they decide to test things by swapping the guts of they two boxes with each other. This mostly works. Apparently some minor adjustments are needed. But the do send and receive signals.

Ok. Next they try swapping into a human made case. Partly because they don't want to deal with the original cases fasteners (instead of screws, they use tab & slot, with the tabs twisted and folded over. Familiar to anyone who messed with 50s-60 toys made of sheet metal :-)

And the unit promptly goes haywire. Ok, the original case was steel. The human one was aluminum. They scratch their heads but make a steel one. Even do their best to duplicate the steel. Still not working right.

Hmmm. Original is a stamped box with a flat lid. Human one was folded and riveted.

This goes thru several iterations. along the way one of the originals goes a bit goofy even though it's still in its orignal case. But wait. Somebody had soldered a mounting bracket on it...

Much head scratching and someone remembering the thre other works with magnetic currents and related analogues to resistance, capacitance, etc the way humans do with electricity.

Final explanation. The case are magnetized in a certain pattern. Why? Because the stamping equipment is driven by solenoid hammers. Which induces a particular magnetic field upon the cases. One that has a certain orientation and variation.

Not done on purpose, just an artifact of the way they make them. But one that affects the circuitry inside the case...

This gonna take a *long* time, isn't it? :-)

[siliconshaman]

That is an engineering nightmare ! And quite believable. There's a lot of tech that we don't quite know entirely why it works, we just know how to make it work... even more back when we hadn't grasped the theory behind it.

[kengr]

I got the idea from a combo of things. First a long time back I read some stuff about the magnetic equivalent of electrical stuff.

Then there was the bit with the British boffins and the magnetron tube.

Finally, there's the fun bit where you can "tune" a microwave circuit by making marks with a pencil on the circuit board.

That last could appear to be magic if the marks were made by an inspector, and things quit working when they switched inspectors. :-)

Wish I could remember the patent for the first transistor. It was a dual whisker crystal detector. Patented befor 1910. Not even the inventor knew *why* it worked so it was pretty much abandoned until semiconductor electronics got going. *Then* someone noticed it and realized what had actually been discovered (and why it hadn't worked so well)

[stickmaker]

Then there's the perils of literal translations, such as Heinlein's "The gods breathe on the [something] and it moves."

As I understand it, the first major translation of the works of Jules Verne was made by someone who did not know technical French. Which led to generations of critics claiming that Verne wasn't actually writing science fiction.

[kengr]

I used to work for the American branch of a German company.

One of the QA people who'd been there for the setup stage (before the actual startup, which was where I came in) told of a technical document that had been translated from German to English by a non-technical translator.

They were puzzled by references to "licking" the silicon wafers. Then when it started talking about a "licking machine" they realized what had happened.

Apparently, in German "lick" and "lap" are also synonyms. It should have been talking about lapping the wafers with a lapping machine.

Lapping is sort of like polishing, but not quite. Lapping is more for get the pieces flat and of uniform thickness. Polishing is about getting them really, really smooth.

[acelightning73]

Phlogiston chemistry. Insanely detailed astrology (minute by minute.) Alchemy. Palm-reading, phrenology, and handwriting analysis. The Burroughs dimension-redefining drive.

Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

>>I've often played with the idea that there isn't just *one* way to do things. So, for example, there may be several different ways to achieve FTL. Ditto for weapons tech and maybe defenses like shielding.<<

Well yeah. Look at all the different ways people have built boats, from coracles to windjammers to oceanliners.

>>basic idea is similar to that in one set of Turtledove's stories where early on there's a crucial experiment or discovery that leads you in a direction that leads away from the sort of things we discovered.<<

That's one point of divergence. Another is resources: people will use what they have. A metal-poor planet may use ceramics as their major material. One way you get biotech is if a civilization burns through all its mechanical resources then collapses, there's no way to rebuild that, so they have to pick a different path.

>>So both sides can do equivalent things, but their science behind said things is just so much gobbledegook to the other side.

But trying to *write* something like this looks like a *major* headache.<<

If I were doing it, I'd start with the divergence point. When and why did they branch off in different directions? Then, look at assorted major things a developed society tends to do, like build cities and long-distance transportation and record knowledge. How does each side do that? Compare and contrast, what are the pros and cons of each system?

Then, what happens if they meet? The advanced material will be incomprehensible. But everyone has to learn this stuff, so there must be materials for teaching children things like our scientific method. That should work with anything that is science. Magic, sometimes not, if the system creates an imprint on people's energy that makes a different system partially or wholly incompatible.

Re: Thoughts

[stickmaker]

Materials science can be very picky. Part numbers were written on a titanium sheet intended to be used for one of the prototype Blackbirds. The next morning they had a stencil, with the places where they had written reduced to powder on the floor. Turns out the ink used in the marker contained ammonia.

John D. Clark's _Ignition! An Informal History of Liquid Rocket Propellants_ is full of similar cautionary tales. Like the young propellant chemist who didn't know that the "I" in IRFNA stood for "Inhibited" and ordered a batch without it. Then wondered why his nitric acid turned green and started dissolving the drum...

Re: Thoughts

[kengr]

Back in 1973 I picked up an obsolete textbook that had been for the fire safety course at the Community College I was going to. It was a combo of 3 or 4 different manuals. One about the hazard diamonds, one about hazardous chemical reactions, and I don't recall the others.

The hazardous reactions one was a bunch of cautionary tales relating incidents where seemingly minor "oops" led to large problems.

One was about the time somebody *thought* a tanker truck's tank was mild steel. And filled it with concentrated NaOH solution. Turns out it was aluminum. Which is bad news.

Exposed to strong bases aluminum (and titanium and several other metal) lose the tough oxide coat. Which leaves the actual metal exposed to the water in the solution. Which it happily reacts with, producing hydrogen, and lots of heat.

So the tanker caught on fire!

Re: Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

Yep. And most blue-collar folks will only warn an asshole boss once not to mix bleach and ammonia.

However, the bottom rungs of the materials science ladder -- the kitchen-chemistry stuff -- make a fantastic starting point in any science that relies on materials. Some genius fanfic writer did that with potions ingredients in Harry Potter.

Re: Thoughts

[kengr]

Thing is, if I knew the divergence point, and what came after, then *I* could make the alternate tech.

So I have to avoid details and restrict my handwaving somewhat. Which affects the writing.

Re: Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

Me, I'm good at finding divergence points. There are a handful of things that I can port over -- recipes, some crafts, instructions for classes, etc. Other than that, all I can do is describe them. I know how to do or make a lot of things that I don't have the skills to replicate personally.

Re: Thoughts

[fayanora]

As Alex said in another comment, in my Ravenstone series there's lots of different kinds of magic, and different ways to do certain things doable without magic. I won't go through them all again, but I am especially proud of the magic system the Lichters use. It's steampunk mad science. The main magitech they use is "cold steam," which is steam power with lukewarm steam made of magic. There's also phlogistons, plotosium (magical helium), and a number of other magical substances.

[alex_antonin]

We've been doing something similar with the Ravenstone series. Some parts of the multiverse have magic, others don't. Not all worlds have the same kind of magic. A couple characters in book 6 have magic that imitates some of the old fashioned physics ideas like phlogistons, and does some other weird things with a "mad scientist" steampunk aesthetic.

Similarly, there's at least seven different ways to traverse the multiverse: learned magic method (faery only), natural world walkers (rare), world walking powered by more magically powerful allies, magical portal devices using runes, "blue sphere" portal devices, ships that travel the void between the worlds, and a non-magical portal device by a new character from a LOOOONG way away from the main universe... from a universe without magic.