Insight

[kengr]

While talking about a number of things with alatefeline last night a couple of things came up.

One was unconscious assumptions. The other was the old canard "it takes two to make a fight".

While reading this article, the two ideas bashed together in my head.

The problem with "it takes two to fight" is the horribly inaccurate assumption it makes about "male" interactions in childhood. Namely that the choice is "fight"/"don't fight".

In reality, the choice is "get beat up"/"try to protect yourself". so it's actually unconscious gaslighting.

I mentioned "male" above because in my experience, it's always the female authority figures spouting this nonsensical piece of "wisdom". I suspect that is because of the differences in "male" and "female" socialization. Boys are expected to have fights. girls are "trained" to attack in less physical ways.

Though come to think of it, "it takes to to have a fight" *should* be equally applicable (and wrong) to the social sniping among girls, which can get *really* nasty by high school.

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names can never hurt me" is another horrible example of gaslighting kids and is another bit of "wisdom" that should be stomped on *hard*.

Name calling can do *more* damage than physical assault, Bruises, even broken bones heal a lot faster than the emotional damage those "harmless" words can inflict.

I know I'm far from the only person to have PTSD from *emotional* abuse.

Comments

[kengr]

It may take two people to have an equal back-and-forth, positive or negative, but many interactions AREN'T equal. Someone initiates, or escalates, something; the other person has to respond *somehow,* even if the response is being passive or avoiding them, and passivity/avoidance/politeness just do NOT stop people who want to push or take or hurt or take advantage.

Right. Inaction is an action, which is seldom considered, and the *reaction* to inaction is often far worse for the victim.

If the list of acceptable-to-adults ways for kids to respond to other kids hurting them doesn't include anything that actually WORKS, that's the adults creating and enabling an abusive situation.

Far too often the "acceptable" behaviors are based on pious hopes, rather than having any connection with reality.

This is also why so many laws fail to have the intended effect. Those proposing them *assume* both that everyone else reacts the way they do *and* that everyone else *wants* what they do.

This leads to things like Prohibition, the "war on drugs" and school policies that do not take into account the culture(s) of the kids and adults.

I don't mean cultures from an ethnic standpoint. I mean things like "don't involve adults" and "don't tattle" that are part of the *society* that kids in various age groups have passed on for *centuries*.

If the adults don't set boundaries that are clear and consistent about 'this is not something that we just let happen here', NOBODY feels safe. (And all this is assuming the adults themselves are basically functional and not directly abusive, which is a big assumption.)

Not just clear and consistent. They have to "make sense" from the viewpoint of the kids both individually and as part of "kid culture".

Frankly, I think we might do better if we worked on persuading "kid culture" to change a few things.

If we can get them to adopt changes in the "rules" (actually "customs") that they pass on as new kids join the group, then it becomes self-sustaining.


When one kid treats another kid or kids in ways that are *harmful* and/or violate their boundaries, the adult expectation should be that they have to do more than say 'sorry' and expect to be instantly rewarded.

Oh, but doing that makes things *appear* to be going well, which is all that many care about. appearance matter. Reality doesn't.

Kids have to do, have to be taught and helped and expected to do, the WORK of making amends to one another and to their community. Otherwise ... whenever someone hurts someone else's body, or their things, or harms them emotionally through words or actions that violate their boundaries and sense of reasonable safety ... if they get an escape clause like 'takes two to fight' or 'boys will be boys' or 'oh, girls just are clique-y at this age' or 'but I said sorry!' ... well, all the other kids that they have (directly or indirectly) hurt are being emotionally neglected at best, AND the kid who caused harm is being trained into negative behavior patterns that will set them up to be miserable and cause misery around them.

adult society needs to fix those exact same problems in itself before we'll get a lot of traction with kids. They can spot hypocrisy a mile away.

Still, trying to fix kids will make it easier to fix adults when *they* grow up.

That takes a lot of time and resources to set limits, stop the problem in its tracks, redirect the action taking place, separate kids who need space (or that others need space from), help them de-escalate and become emotionally regulated and meet their individual needs, address underlying issues, talk through choices and solutions, and come up with a plan to try to fix things; and it will NOT be perfect; and kids will need a lot of support all through the process whether they did harm, or were harmed, or both. Building a community with accountability and respect and kindness and value given to diversity and room to grow is NOT easy, but it's also not *optional* for healthy socialization. Sadly we have lots and lots of adult priorities operating to make kids unhealthy and unhappy in our society...


Given that adult society has many of the same problems, it will be an uphill battle.

*hugs offered*

Not needed, but cheerfully accepted.

I need to get a *big* beanbag chair so (willing) vistors can cuddle with me. :-)

Thanks again for hanging out with me yesterday evening!!!

Hey, that was good for me, too.