Insight

[kengr]

While talking about a number of things with alatefeline last night a couple of things came up.

One was unconscious assumptions. The other was the old canard "it takes two to make a fight".

While reading this article, the two ideas bashed together in my head.

The problem with "it takes two to fight" is the horribly inaccurate assumption it makes about "male" interactions in childhood. Namely that the choice is "fight"/"don't fight".

In reality, the choice is "get beat up"/"try to protect yourself". so it's actually unconscious gaslighting.

I mentioned "male" above because in my experience, it's always the female authority figures spouting this nonsensical piece of "wisdom". I suspect that is because of the differences in "male" and "female" socialization. Boys are expected to have fights. girls are "trained" to attack in less physical ways.

Though come to think of it, "it takes to to have a fight" *should* be equally applicable (and wrong) to the social sniping among girls, which can get *really* nasty by high school.

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names can never hurt me" is another horrible example of gaslighting kids and is another bit of "wisdom" that should be stomped on *hard*.

Name calling can do *more* damage than physical assault, Bruises, even broken bones heal a lot faster than the emotional damage those "harmless" words can inflict.

I know I'm far from the only person to have PTSD from *emotional* abuse.

Comments

[alatefeline]

Agreed hardcore!

Analysis from my perspective (some experience, but not drastic or majorly traumatic, experience of childhood bullying; adult experience as an educator) follows. CW for discussion of children and adults and emotional abuse ...

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It may take two people to have an equal back-and-forth, positive or negative, but many interactions AREN'T equal. Someone initiates, or escalates, something; the other person has to respond *somehow,* even if the response is being passive or avoiding them, and passivity/avoidance/politeness just do NOT stop people who want to push or take or hurt or take advantage.

If the list of acceptable-to-adults ways for kids to respond to other kids hurting them doesn't include anything that actually WORKS, that's the adults creating and enabling an abusive situation.

If the adults don't set boundaries that are clear and consistent about 'this is not something that we just let happen here', NOBODY feels safe. (And all this is assuming the adults themselves are basically functional and not directly abusive, which is a big assumption.)

When one kid treats another kid or kids in ways that are *harmful* and/or violate their boundaries, the adult expectation should be that they have to do more than say 'sorry' and expect to be instantly rewarded. Kids have to do, have to be taught and helped and expected to do, the WORK of making amends to one another and to their community. Otherwise ... whenever someone hurts someone else's body, or their things, or harms them emotionally through words or actions that violate their boundaries and sense of reasonable safety ... if they get an escape clause like 'takes two to fight' or 'boys will be boys' or 'oh, girls just are clique-y at this age' or 'but I said sorry!' ... well, all the other kids that they have (directly or indirectly) hurt are being emotionally neglected at best, AND the kid who caused harm is being trained into negative behavior patterns that will set them up to be miserable and cause misery around them.

That takes a lot of time and resources to set limits, stop the problem in its tracks, redirect the action taking place, separate kids who need space (or that others need space from), help them de-escalate and become emotionally regulated and meet their individual needs, address underlying issues, talk through choices and solutions, and come up with a plan to try to fix things; and it will NOT be perfect; and kids will need a lot of support all through the process whether they did harm, or were harmed, or both. Building a community with accountability and respect and kindness and value given to diversity and room to grow is NOT easy, but it's also not *optional* for healthy socialization. Sadly we have lots and lots of adult priorities operating to make kids unhealthy and unhappy in our society...

*hugs offered*

Thanks again for hanging out with me yesterday evening!!!

Well ...

[ysabetwordsmith]

>>The problem with "it takes two to fight" is the horribly inaccurate assumption it makes about "male" interactions in childhood. <<

It takes two sides to have a war, but only one to have a massacre. "It takes two to fight" is usually said when trying to train someone to be a good victim and not resist.

Well, resist. They may still beat the shit out of you, and you may still get punished for having boundaries, but you don't have to make it EASY for them. You can at least make the bastards PAY for it.

[stickmaker]

In many schools, fighting back is considered "prolonging the violence" and officially banned. Of course, what prolongs the violence is letting bullies get away with hurting other kids.

I have over 30 years of self-defense martial arts training and even taught a few friends. Propper self-defense can be something as simple as easily breaking the grip of someone trying to intimidate you, or blocking a punch without hitting back. Yet in some schools such actions will get the defender in more trouble from authorities than that levied upon the attacker.